Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

[Topaz Luckdragon]

Am I allowed to make comments on some points of that list? I don't come here often, so I'm not so sure about etiquette here.

2. Men are significantly more likely to be the victims of violent crime (of which rape is included) than women.

While the violent crime bit may be true, saying that men are raped more often that women is utter bullshit.

6. Men comprise 95% of workplace deaths.

Isn't this because the majority of employees at dangerous places where workplace deaths are likely are men? This seems like more of a situational thing, not societal oppression.

8. The vast majority of prisoners are men.

In the same vein as above, isn't this because there are more male criminals than females?

Also, I agree with Kamak.

[Brekkjern]

I really think men don't deserve any reproductive rights because they aren't pushing a (roughly)8 pound mass of muscle, and skeleton out of a (roughly)5 inch hole. also, wear a goddamn condom.

I could go through that list in depth but I'm not convinced I'll change your mind, so I won't bother.

Please do. It wouldn't be much of a discussion if nobody makes any arguments. Admittedly, I think much of the list is stupid. Some of it is irrelevant. However the legal system has generally been more relaxed while dealing with women.

That being said, I am not saying womens rights don't matter. I want absolute equality. Not a society that is leaning one way or another.

[Reyo]

Ultimately though, custody rights and child support should be decided as for what's best for the child. Yes, there are some scumbag dads that should absolutely have nothing to do with their kids and the only way to get them out of that situation is if the mom has child support. But there are some really scummy moms out there that don't deserve custody of their kids but get it anyways because 9 months of carrying them around entitles them to fuck up their child's life if they wish to.

Disregarding what's fair to the men, this is absolute bullshit for the children, who never asked to be put in this situation and don't get a choice because they're too young. But being too young doesn't mean you can't find out from the source whether one parent neglects the kid or outright abuses them.

Pretty much this. Everyone freaks out over who gets custody over a kid who was unintentionally conceived and "pregnancy" is always used as some kind of veto. It's not quite that black and white where the best solution sits solely on the mother's hands because "pregnancy." Ether parent is capable of being the better\worse parent. Sometimes the case is that NEITHER parent should get the kid. The entire situation needs to be considered, not just the physical aspect of carrying the kid for 9 months.

[BurntToShreds]

Men in the US are also the only ones that can be drafted. Either change the selective service laws to include everyone, or remove the option of the draft outright.

As well, men in the US are the only ones who can get their genitals mutilated upon birth without consent. Female genital mutilation is wrong, but male genital mutilation is A-OK. The laws that enable male circumcision without consent should be removed, and instead men should be allowed to, when they're old enough, make a decision about it themselves. That, or for complete equality, ban circumcision.

[Lambeth]

1. Women are treated better in all aspects of the legal system. For instance, women receive lighter sentences and a higher chance of acquittal, simply for being women.

no disagreement here. Have you heard of a certain Susan B. Anthony?

2. Men are significantly more likely to be the victims of violent crime (of which rape is included) than women.

I don't think this is a instance of women oppressing men?

3. Despite domestic violence being equally committed by women, for the most part only male perpetrators are arrested

I don't have a problem with dudes objecting to this really.

4. The feminist definition of domestic violence has skewed arrest and prosecution philosophies, resulting in having mostly male batterers criminally pursued, and female batterers left alone.

likewise

5. It is legal to circumcise male babies against their will. In some places, laws have been passed which forbid any attempts to make male circumcision illegal. Meanwhile, female circumcision is completely illegal, even though some types of female circumcision are equivalent in harm to male circumcision, and other types (a symbolic prick to draw blood) are non-harmful.

I'm not so sure it's equivalent but circumcision shouldn't against one's will one way or another.

6. Men comprise 95% of workplace deaths.

I guess that's a shocking result of men working more than women. stupid stupid stupid. Also not sourced.

7. Men commit suicide at over triple the rate that women do.

Not sourced. which sort of men are being talking about? rich, poor, young, old?

8. The vast majority of prisoners are men.

not sourced again. I'd guess that's because people find men simply more threatening. Black men are the biggest demographic in prison in proportion to how much of the population they represent for this reason.

9. Men are doing worse in all aspects of the educational system, from kindergarten to university.

Perhaps because women and minorities have to over compensate just to appear on the level with men? I dunno, just speculating here.

10. Men who are falsely accused of rape can have their names published and their lives ruined even if they are not convicted or charged - their accuser is protected and is likely to face no punishment, or a light one.

Women who actually raped get all of that and more.

11. Reproductive rights. Men have none. Simply read this story.

let me reiterate that dudes should wear a fucking condom.

12. Parental rights. Men have virtually none. See below.
A woman can name any man she likes as the father, he gets a letter in the mail, if he does not prove he isn't the father within 30 days—(suppose the letter gets lost by the USPS?)—he is now the father and must pay. He cannot contest it.
A boy who is the victim of statutory rape must pay child support to his rapist.
A man who is raped while unconscious must likewise pay child support.
A man who fathers a child and wishes to take custody may have his child adopted out against his will and essentially kidnapped

Gender roles at play hoorah. notions of parenthood are fucked up in the world, not gonna lie.

13. The majority of homeless are men

No goddamn source. But if it's true I'll bet it's because most are also veterans. and veterans are mostly male because more men serve than women.

14. Despite men's need being arguably greater than women, government spending to help women is 10 to 100 times greater than that to help men. That figure is unrelated to medical spending.

what the hell this is probably the stupidest thing. I'm not even gonna comment on it.

15. In 2009/2010 it was $1,516,460 toward men and $57,562,373 toward women. In 2010/2011 it was $3,740,800 toward men and $48,331,443 toward women. In 2008/2009 the province dedicated $561,360 toward men's resources and $98,983,236 toward women's resources. (figures are for British Columbia, Canada, but representative of Western society).
16. Female-owned businesses get free government cheddar for bodaciously no reason other than being a woman (i.e. all other factors are equal, same size of business, same income, etc. etc. but the owner's gender is different = cheddar or no cheddar.

This is because men are still the majority and still make most of the cheddar in the world? same reason first nation people get lots of help, they need it.

17. On some airlines, men were banned from sitting next to kids on airplanes, simply because they were men. Why? Because men are pedophiles, obviously. This ban remains on some airlines, such as Air New Zealand.

banning people merely because they might be pedophiles is dumb but I can see the logic.

18. Under a recent federal directive, men are convicted of rape in university campuses if the investigating board finds that the chances they committed the rape are at 50.00001% or greater.

are the investigative board robots now? that link seems to be completely unrelated to the point that the statement was making.

19. The DOE policy in practice: Caleb Warner was accused of rape and expelled from the University of North Dakota, then his accuser was charged with filing a false report. He remains expelled as of June 2011.

Isolated case. I think as a white dude he'll be okay.

20. Selective service. Enough said.

Wah wah wah when was the last time selective service actually used.

Pretty much this. Everyone freaks out over who gets custody over a kid who was unintentionally conceived and "pregnancy" is always used as some kind of veto. It's not quite that black and white where the best solution sits solely on the mother's hands because "pregnancy." Ether parent is capable of being the better\worse parent. Sometimes the case is that NEITHER parent should get the kid. The entire situation needs to be considered, not just the physical aspect of carrying the kid for 9 months.

I think reproductive rights and parental rights are being sorta blurred here. I think without exception that the woman in a relationship should be the one to decide to have a child. She's free to listen to the prospective father if she wants to, but she should never be forced into something she doesn't want. Once the baby is actually born and for whatever reason the parents want a divorce, then yes I think the two of them should have a equal chance custody wise.

Men in the US are also the only ones that can be drafted. Either change the selective service laws to include everyone, or remove the option of the draft outright.

As well, men in the US are the only ones who can get their genitals mutilated upon birth without consent. Female genital mutilation is wrong, but male genital mutilation is A-OK. The laws that enable male circumcision without consent should be removed, and instead men should be allowed to, when they're old enough, make a decision about it themselves. That, or for complete equality, ban circumcision.

That's really a fault of the religious majority, a bunch of old white dudes.

[BurntToShreds]

Yes, those circumstances are the fault of the religious majority and those in power (It's not just "old white dudes" anymore), but they are still still inequalities that should be eradicated.

[Reyo]

Pretty much this. Everyone freaks out over who gets custody over a kid who was unintentionally conceived and "pregnancy" is always used as some kind of veto. It's not quite that black and white where the best solution sits solely on the mother's hands because "pregnancy." Ether parent is capable of being the better\worse parent. Sometimes the case is that NEITHER parent should get the kid. The entire situation needs to be considered, not just the physical aspect of carrying the kid for 9 months.

I think reproductive rights and parental rights are being sorta blurred here. I think without exception that the woman in a relationship should be the one to decide to have a child. She's free to listen to the prospective father if she wants to, but she should never be forced into something she doesn't want. Once the baby is actually born and for whatever reason the parents want a divorce, then yes I think the two of them should have a equal chance custody wise.

Then we're talking about 2 very different things. You're talking about the physical pregnancy where we're talking about the continued life of the actual child. I'm glad you're willing to see that a man should at least have a say in custody though. Too much I've seen that the mother gets absolute say in where the kid goes, assuming the kid even lives to birth.

[Lambeth]

Yes, those circumstances are the fault of the religious majority and those in power (It's not just "old white dudes" anymore), but they are still still inequalities that should be eradicated.

It mostly is. White dudes are still the majority.

[BurntToShreds]

So it's still true the majority of people in power areold white dudes. However, do you believe that those circumstances make inequalities such as selective service or circumcision acceptable?

[TheStranger]

Isnt circumsision for male babies still legal because no one has bothered to reappeal it? I dont agree with it, but I dont think its much of a social problem if no one can be assed to have it taken away.

[Lambeth]

So it's still true the majority of people in power areold white dudes. However, do you believe that those circumstances make inequalities such as selective service or circumcision acceptable?

No?

let me ask again, when was the last time america used selective service?

Isnt circumsision for male babies still legal because no one has bothered to reappeal it? I dont agree with it, but I dont think its much of a social problem if no one can be assed to have it taken away.

It's basically tradition at this point. Though a few guys have genuine medical issues that can be cleared up with a circumcision.

[BurntToShreds]

The issue I have with male circumcision is that the baby receiving the circumcision can't give their consent. And yes, it's not much of a social problem, but it's still the act of cutting a piece of skin off of the genitals of an infant who cannot give their consent to the operation, and a part of society where men don't have an equal standing. Now if a man later on in life decides that they don't want their foreskin anymore, then I'd be fine with that because said man would be able to give their express consent.

And Lambeth, the point is that the selective service is still there, perfectly viable for use by the people in power to send men into the draft, but leaving women out of the equation. For the sake of equality, selective service should be extended to all people in the United States 18 and over. That, or given the ethical implications, removed from the law.

[TheStranger]

No, I agree that it shouldnt be done, but I dont consider it an equality issue, its simply a traditions issue. They dont circumsize women in the US because that particular tradition was never part of US society, its looking for enemies were there isnt any. Most of the real social issues faced by men are byproducts of positive discrimination aimed towards women, such as prison sentences and domestic abuse issues, and has to be dealt with through equality lobbying, rather than starting up a contrarian movement that comes off as misogynist.

[Wry Bread]

I don't

usually bring up my religion or anything, pretty much on purpose

but I will say that circumcision is a really touchy subject. Really touchy. And hard. Especially if, like me, you're the female child of a Jewish family and expected to bear a religiously-raised male heir to continue the family line, which requires circumcision on the eighth day of life. I'm not stating my own opinion on the subject because I almost don't have one since I'm sort of paralyzed between seeing some of the good points of anti-circumcision folks, but also belonging to a religious culture and a family that absolutely demand the practice.

Also, it's really absolutely not comparable to female genital mutilation, which all but entirely removes the ability of the female to feel any physical pleasure during sex (let alone orgasm) at all, entirely removes the ability to masturbate, and often leaves the genital opening raw and exposed if they also remove the labia. Females are often purposely scarred during the procedure, and it's performed in many societies by adult men without the use of anaesthesia against adolescent girls as an act of brutality. Circumcision isn't performed to harm, punish, subjugate or shame men; female genital mutilation is meant to do those things to women, though. Circumcision is also performed by religious law on the exact day a newborn's endorphins and immune system are strongest, to ease the experience. So it's really nothing like it in any of the ways people try to imply. Yes, genitals are having things done to them that could be described with -ectomy, and sometimes it has to do with religion. The intent, nature, results, and act itself are wildly different on every other front.

[BurntToShreds]

The point still remains that it's still socially acceptable in western society for males to have their genitals mutilated without consent. The procedures for males and females are drastically different in their effects, yes, but it doesn't make it right for one of them to continue just because the effects are less severe. Neither does said practice's place in society as an acceptable act.