Dark/Demon's Souls

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Syobon
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Syobon »

Seriously? How does something like that make it through testing?

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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Airra »

Patches locked the team in a closet before they could catch it, obviously.

Patches gon' have to fix it, now.


I hope it's patched up in time for me to try and get into PvP. I'm running a Claymore build, so that'd give me a lot of trouble since I can't find any other weapon I'm particularly fond of using.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Shoolis »

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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Galaxy Man »

Syobon wrote:Seriously? How does something like that make it through testing?
It doesn't. That statement was bodaciously almost entirely false.

What we've learned recently is that while a file in the game has a state set to "0", poise works like DS2, being a hyper-armor that you get while swinging a weapon.

If you set that file to "1", however, poise suddenly works like DS1, meaning you do not get flinched until attacks break an invisible poise meter.

Nobody knows if this is a bug, intentional, or what Fromsoft is doing with this. But saying poise was "forgotten" is flat out completely incorrect, as it is in the game, but with two different potential functions. Which isn't a surprise. Poise has been the biggest balance issue over both DS1 and 2, and they've directly stated they'll probably be working on poise changes and fixes for all of DS3's lifecycle.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Airra »

As far as I can tell, Poise is doing bodaciously nothing to affect how you take attacks as things are. Weapons with hyper armor on specific attacks have those armor frames whether you're decked out in the highest grade of poised armor or wearing nothing at all.

Having just tested it myself, using my really low frames (which halves game speed (so I know I'm not timing it wrong)), the hyper armor seems to be completely reliant on the weapon itself rather than any value gained from armor.

Phantom-type mobs work much differently from all the other mobs, from my experience, where they also take the exact same kind of stagger as players while disregarding their own armor. Non-player-type mobs seems to have slightly more traditional poise even though they visibly flinch from attacks.


I also went ahead and found a couple of videos covering the subject since I don't expect my word alone to be any good for an argument.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Galaxy Man »

Airra wrote:As far as I can tell, Poise is doing bodaciously nothing to affect how you take attacks as things are. Weapons with hyper armor on specific attacks have those armor frames whether you're decked out in the highest grade of poised armor or wearing nothing at all.
Having just tested it myself, using my really low frames (which halves game speed (so I know I'm not timing it wrong)), the hyper armor seems to be completely reliant on the weapon itself rather than any value gained from armor.

Phantom-type mobs work much differently from all the other mobs, from my experience, where they also take the exact same kind of stagger as players while disregarding their own armor. Non-player-type mobs seems to have slightly more traditional poise even though they visibly flinch from attacks.[/quote]

once again, this is how DS2 worked. weapons have to break the poise limit on the attack. weapons with slower attacks are gonna not only have a longer window, but have more inherent poise. your fuckin' straight sword is gonna get you staggered because it dosen't have great hyper armor frames and it's not getting a lot of poise advantage. enemies in DS2 had more traditional poise as well.
I also went ahead and found a couple of videos covering the subject since I don't expect my word alone to be any good for an argument.
so first off, the first video is ignoring a few important points, that being how well enemies break poise. anything with range, at least in my experience, does the most stun and poise damage in the game. stupid? yes. a bug? no. secondly, once again, weapons have more poise and more hyper armor frames when they get slower. you're not gonna get a lot of poise use out of a straight sword. it didn't happen in DS2, it's not gonna happen now.

the second video the guy is an idiot and doesn't realize that the wolf ring grants a percentage bonus. The thing shows more poise before he equips an item because it's not calculating the total poise after it's equipped, it's just adding it on to the number he currently has. which probably is a bug, but it doesn't mean poise is bugged, just the menu screen.

secondly, he's confused that the caestus weapon art is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, which is block and prevent a flinch. it's not increasing your poise stat directly, it's giving you an "attack" with massive hyper armor timing and a damage reduction. bad writing? maybe, if you're really looking to see how much poise it increases when it's technically not increasing your poise stat directly. a bug, or something missed? no.

bodaciously this exact same argument was made with DS2. everyone thought poise was broken. thought it sucked. thought something was wrong.

there wasn't anything wrong, it was just different, and it was different intentionally.

another thing is you said was they "forgot to enable player poise when porting the engine"

which those videos actually directly contradict. nothing in bloodborne had any hyper armor. there was no poise. poise did not exist in any form. the fact that weapons in DS3 have hyper armor means poise has been implemented but works like in DS2.

so, to conclude

not a bug, heard it all before, it's how the game works atm, might be changed, but not a bug
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Syobon »

once again, this is how DS2 worked. weapons have to break the poise limit on the attack. weapons with slower attacks are gonna not only have a longer window, but have more inherent poise. your fuckin' straight sword is gonna get you staggered because it dosen't have great hyper armor frames and it's not getting a lot of poise advantage. enemies in DS2 had more traditional poise as well.
Not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, so poise is only dependent on your weapon, not your armor?

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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Bappie »

So does that mean the Poise stat on armour is completely useless?
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Galaxy Man »

what it means if every swing of a weapon has a certain number of hyper armor frames, and a certain poise limit, based on your poise
if you're hit during the hyper armor, you're not gonna stop swinging. if you're hit during the poise boost from the swing, you might stop if your poise isn't enough
so if you're wearing no armor, and swing a weapon with heavy hyper armor, the hyper armor is just not gonna be there.
stack the poise though, and your swings aren't gonna be interrupted by weak poise attacks, and a solid chunk of it isn't gonna matter.

the farron GS is a good example of how poise works, because it has a ton of hyper armor in a long attack, with a clear period of when it begins and ends. if you do the dual-wield L1, your jump forward and stab a dagger into the ground. during that period, you can be knocked out of the attack if your poise is broken. however, after you've stabbed the dagger in and start spinning, you're in hyper armor. with the farron GS in particular, the hyper armor frames are so long naturally that even if you have no poise, you're gonna be able to tank damage for a decent period.

with something like a straight sword, the hyper armor frames are MUCH LESS because it swings so fast. so it's not super noticeable.

basically it means the same thing it meant in DS2, slow weapons benefit from poise, fast ones basically do not.

the issue currently is less that poise doesn't work, and more that everything breaks poise really easily.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Airra »

There's really no reason to be so hostile. I had just become aware of the whole thing and hadn't seen any discussion here.
Galaxy Man wrote:once again, this is how DS2 worked. weapons have to break the poise limit on the attack. weapons with slower attacks are gonna not only have a longer window, but have more inherent poise. your fuckin' straight sword is gonna get you staggered because it dosen't have great hyper armor frames and it's not getting a lot of poise advantage
I went ahead and compared a bunch of PvP videos between 2 and 3, and I can say with confidence that Poise in 2 doesn't function like it does in 3. From what I've seen, you can poise through attacks well before actually taking a swing in 2 (even taking a full hit while just strafing and continuing the stride), but you're interrupted and staggered on the vast majority of weapons if you so much as get scratched at any moment before the swing formally goes out.
Yeah, Poise in 2 wasn't Dark Souls 1 Poise, but it still had passive effects.

Now, I generally never use anything that isn't a (non-ultra) great sword, so I haven't been touching straight swords aside from when I went from Lothric to Irythil to test different poise values on different weapons. So far from what I can find, there is just no tangible difference between running no poise and running full Lothric armor. I've had moments where I armored through boss attacks during a Bastard Sword R2 while running low poise Fashion Souls sets and a Try Hard Defense set, but those were only after the sword had made contact.

As things are, you just hyper armor through things with no regard to the poise stat itself or you take a chunk of damage from a partial parry with the same results. The only thing your gear does as things are is reduce the damage taken from a hit.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by iamthelordhitman »

I know that with vordts great hammer I need to be hit -a lot- before my poise breaks in swings
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Airra »

So, having gotten to what I assume to be the Dark Souls III's midpoint, I've been thinking about the battle against Aldrich.

Not long before we reach Anor Londo, Aldrich slimed his way in, munching on hollows, silver knights, and defenseless stunlocking puppies all along the way. Before formally stepping foot into the boss room, Gwyndolin's chamber is wide open with the gender-neutral deity of judgement nowhere to be found. Sunny Anor Londo was all dark and moonlit.

Everything we learn of Aldrich before this point, including from the opening cutscene, leads one to believe we're tracking down a enormous slime blob beast not unlike the dragon slime creatures that dot the land long before this point. However, upon entering the boss room, we're greeted by an eldritch being with the upper torso of a human.

Having reflected on this for a while, I noticed that I recognized the crown on Aldrich's head. After doing some comparisons of the boss up close to some images of Gwyndolin from Dark Souls I, I realized that Aldrich didn't eat him before we got there but we actually stumbled in during the middle of his dinner. He was also somehow controlling the ol' Darkmoon covenant leader's body.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Vyre »

Poise does work in Dark Souls 3, but it's only for very particular attack frames on heavier weapons, and then only once the attack swing has been made, so it's effectively useless on a lot of weapons(meaning, it's more effective to just time the attack correctly). The easiest way to observe poise working is to cast miracles with long cast timers using L2. The effect gives you an insane amount of poise, and you will always succeed in casting your miracle(even with 0 gear poise).

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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Airra »

I'm fairly certain that's hyper armor as looking at your stats shows no change to the poise value. I've never been staggered out of any move that has that effect. And I tried to set it up.

Iron Flesh is the only thing that seems to use true poise on players, and you may as well not have armor with that.
Last edited by Airra on Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dark/Demon's Souls

Post by Galaxy Man »

Airra wrote:I'm fairly certain that's hyper armor as looking at your stats shows no change to the poise value. I've never been staggered out of any move that has that effect. And I tried to set it up.
once again, that's bodaciously how poise worked in DS2. that is exactly what it was, hyper armor. poise was not "no flinching during anything", it was hyper armor during attacks, most noticeable on extremely slow attacks.

the reason why iron flesh works like it does is because it'd be useless otherwise. imagine if you staggered with iron flesh on. imagine. imagine how useless that would be.

notice anything that raises poise doesn't make you not flinch normally, but makes you not flinch when you attack or are in an animation.

poise = hyper armor, at least for now. may change in the future. nothing actually shows it being broken, however.
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