AWKWARD ZOMBIE

Anytime somebody talks about playing with no items the alarm bells start to ring.

I mean, I'm all for occasional games with limited item sets and even the occasional no item battle, but don't start telling me that fights don't count because we used items, because I will laugh at you, and I will point as well.

It is indeed an exaggeration to say that item battles require no skill. It's a different game than no items, one with a larger random factor and less suited for professional play, but still one with plenty of room for skill and competitiveness.

Also, I think most SSB competitive players wouldn't mind playing with items in a casual battle.

People who are that set on battling without items are probably just wannabes.

Also, the item thing doesn't make the tiers worthless. It changes the tiers, but not by an extraordinary amount I'd say.

I'm going on right now too, I think.

I have to do some drawing and do Dream World but I might get on afterward.

Hopefully there'll be some games I can get into, otherwise there'll be a full room of four and I can be Johnny-no-mates.

You can't judge the whole community on the few douchebags that tried to impose their view of how to play on you.

DoNotDelete wrote:I mean, I'm all for occasional games with limited item sets and even the occasional no item battle, but don't start telling me that fights don't count because we used items, because I will laugh at you, and I will point as well.

These fights take a different mindset, that's all. You can play seriously with items on, and it does take skills to do so, and the winner is the winner. There are still some items, like the infamous random Bob-Ombs, that can make the fight unfair because of their randomness - when you dominate an opponent during your whole stock and then get killed by a Bob-Omb popping right in front of your smash attack, your opponent didn't "deserve" that kill. However, if you play with these items, you gotta accept the random factor: if you get blown up by something random and unpredictable, oh well - that's part of the game.
Simply put, you're right - items change the way you have to play, and if you accept to play with them, you have to accept your losses. It also takes skills to use the items correctly and to your advantage. However, the random factor explains why some players prefer playing without items, or at least without some items. Are they right? Ain't no right or wrong about that, it just depends on how the individuals prefer to play. The important part is respect: even if you don't like the way someone plays the game, he plays the way he wants to, and you play the way you want to ; there's no imposing your point of view on others, and others shouldn't try to impose their point of view on you.

Aaand what Sobyon said.

I don't like the random Bob-omb argument because a Bob-omb is just as likely to randomly blow me up as much as it is you, my opponent; However, when I played in tournaments the general rule was to have Bob-ombs and stuff other explosives turned off - but then that arguably unfairly limits what some characters can do - because I'm pretty good at covertly detonating stuff with characters like Luigi (fireballs).

Generally though, if a random Bob-omb blows me up - I'll laugh - and I'll accept the defeat.

Of course, you can argue that your opponent is as likely to get Bob-Omb'd to death as you are - it's still random, though, and that's why competitive play doesn't like items, because they're random. Chance isn't fair, and the game won't keep tab on who already got screwed over by a random item, and who got advantaged by one spawning right in front of him. Once again, all items aren't "unfair". The lightsaber for example gives different tools depending on what character you're using, but isn't a game-breaker. It's the random spawning that competitive players don't like - who's to say that the great items won't only spawn right next to player 1, while player 2 will only be able to use lame ones?

There are 'random' moves here and there - DDD's Side B, Peach's Down B - but these are part of characters, so players don't complain about that.

There's also the issue of one character building momentum with items - once one player starts to get the upper hand, keeping the other in the air/offscreen they get the pick of the items that appear - never giving the other character a chance to fight their way back; This happens mostly in one-on-one battles, and it's why I myself don't like certain items.

I also feel enforcing one-on-one battles goes against the nature of what Brawl is all about, but if that's the way people want to play, then it's their funeral.

Le Great Handsome Oppressor wrote: There are 'random' moves here and there - DDD's Side B, Peach's Down B - but these are part of characters, so players don't complain about that.

Well, in tournament play people tend to turn all items off, so neither of those moves can spawn any items. (They still spawn different minions/veggies, but yes, that's part of the characters' movesets)

Out of all the items, I think the only unfair ones are the fan (no escape, unlimited use) and star (10 seconds of no fighting in a fighting game). Also smash ball when there's only two people. Where's the fun in a screen engulfing attack if there's only one person to engulf?

Xylitol wrote:

Le Great Handsome Oppressor wrote:There are 'random' moves here and there - DDD's Side B, Peach's Down B - but these are part of characters, so players don't complain about that.

Well, in tournament play people tend to turn all items off, so neither of those moves can spawn any items. (They still spawn different minions/veggies, but yes, that's part of the characters' movesets)

And then there's Luigi's cannonball (Side-B) 'misfire'.

Which is always hilarious when it hits home.

DoNotDelete wrote: I also feel enforcing one-on-one battles goes against the nature of what Brawl is all about, but if that's the way people want to play, then it's their funeral.

I play brawl in the competitive way with my friends (who basically comprise most of Finland's comp. brawl scene) and I also usually attend the small tournaments we occasionally organize. I find there are few things more fun and exciting than an intense uphill battle (as is usually the case for me as I almost exclusively play Lucas, who is not only a rather difficult character to play well but also a pretty bad character in the long run anyway, having several very difficult character match-ups) either in a friendly match or a tournament set. I don't really care if I end up winning the whole tournament, I just want to place decently, play fun matches and develop my Lucas further. I'm all for playing item matches as fun friendlies, but I don't really see them as an effective way to gauge a player's skill level (though I do realize it also takes skill to use items to their fullest). I also support having a much more diverse stage list than is standard abroad, we are experimenting with that currently.

Xylitol wrote:...I'm all for playing item matches as fun friendlies, but I don't really see them as an effective way to gauge a player's skill level...

All of my hate.

Xylitol wrote:...(though I do realize it also takes skill to use items to their fullest).

The contents of these parentheses is the only thing that redeems you.

Guyperson wrote:Out of all the items, I think the only unfair ones are the fan (no escape, unlimited use) and star (10 seconds of no fighting in a fighting game). Also smash ball when there's only two people. Where's the fun in a screen engulfing attack if there's only one person to engulf?

The fan isn't completely inescapable, but it's indeed very annoying.

There is one personal nuance I would like to add to the consensus we seem to have reached: when playing with 4 players, with all items on very high, it's such a giant cluster fuck that there needs to be a big gap in skill before it comes into effect. It is still lots of fun though, as long as players don't act all smug after winning.

I usually play with all items on medium. I learnt to deal with the fan, and even arrived upon the point I would throw it off the map out of principle rather than use it, but I don't think I'm on that level of play any more. Bob-ombs seem to be a much smaller problem for me in Brawl then in Melee, I think they always drop in from a certain height so you can kind of see them coming, but I'm not sure.

Also Le Great Handsome Oppressor, I want to play you some time, but I don't think I can play any more for at least two weeks.

Syobon wrote:I learnt to deal with the fan, and even arrived upon the point I would throw it off the map out of principle rather than use it...

I still do this now - unless I'm lagging behind.