Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

[Karilyn]

Because lets face it, most people that pirate games don't end up buying them.

But by the same measure, how many people who pirate games, would have bought the game if a pirating option was not available?

It still comes out to a null sum.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that if it was possible to get accurate statistics on the subject, you'd find that piracy actually helps videogame companies, as it leads to more games being purchased because "Wow, this game and/or series is awesome" than people who are like "Oh hey, I want to go buy this freaking AWESOME GAME, but you know, I think I'm going to pirate it for free instead"

If the person was not going to buy a game, it doesn't hurt sales if they pirate it. The only thing it could do, is help sales, if pirating the game changes the person's mind and they decide to go buy it.

...

Used Videogame Stores like GameStop hurt the videogame industry exponentially more than piracy ever could.

[Cirdanf]

It still comes out to a null sum.

...

Used Videogame Stores like GameStop hurt the videogame industry exponentially more than piracy ever could.

Quoted for truth. If we could get numbers, this would be really interesting.

[Torizo]

I always try to buy my games new. Buying a used game is akin to pirating in the sense that the developers don't see a single penny. Instead it goes to GameStop or another used video game giant. I have nothing against GameStop, we actually have a wonderful one here, but the other two are... eh.

[Xeraphem]

I see a couple of flaws in this argument that I'd like clarification to:

1) If people are impressed with the game, does that mean they'll actually go out and buy it? They have their own version right there, why in the world do they need to buy it but out of respect to the company?

2) Profit wise, there are still royalties to pay with cover art and the like, while they might be a drop in the bucket for many industries, it's still a hole in the cheddar cup, which is a good reason why they're trying to stop it.

3) Used video game stores do not do as much damage as you think, quite the contrary: For a used game to actually be a used game, someone had to buy it new in the first place, thus the industry has made their cheddar off it. The only time I see it hypothetically hurting them is when the customer themselves use the cheddar to buy a used game instead of getting a new game, which they may/may not have contemplated buying in the first place. It's no different than pirating, in that sense, but it doesn't hurt any worse than pirating either.

[Karilyn]

1) If people are impressed with the game, does that mean they'll actually go out and buy it? They have their own version right there, why in the world do they need to buy it but out of respect to the company?

Some do, some don't. It's nice having a hard copy of a game if it's really good. Also other games by the developer are more likely to be purchased now.

3) Used video game stores do not do as much damage as you think, quite the contrary: For a used game to actually be a used game, someone had to buy it new in the first place, thus the industry has made their cheddar off it. The only time I see it hypothetically hurting them is when the customer themselves use the cheddar to buy a used game instead of getting a new game, which they may/may not have contemplated buying in the first place. It's no different than pirating, in that sense, but it doesn't hurt any worse than pirating either.

The option is severely harmful. Most people do not realize that by buying a Used game, that they are directly taking profits away from the company. In most people's minds, they do not differentiate between a new game and a used game, other than that the used game is cheaper, and should they not have a used copy available, they would've simply bought a new copy, and not thought twice about it.

It's not just "slightly cheaper," it's a 100% profit loss to the company. It's not like the item is on sale, but that is what most people equate it to.

If half of all videogame purchases are used videogames (just to throw out a number), that means, bodaciously, the videogame developers are only making 50% of the cheddar that they should have from sales. Because every one of those people who bought the game used, would have purchased it new, had the used option not been available. Even if they were waiting for it to get older, go on sale and be cheaper, they would have done so and still made the company cheddar.

[Xeraphem]

The option is severely harmful. Most people do not realize that by buying a Used game, that they are directly taking profits away from the company. In most people's minds, they do not differentiate between a new game and a used game, other than that the used game is cheaper, and should they not have a used copy available, they would've simply bought a new copy, and not thought twice about it.

It's not just "slightly cheaper," it's a 100% profit loss to the company. It's not like the item is on sale, but that is what most people equate it to.

If half of all videogame purchases are used videogames (just to throw out a number), that means, bodaciously, the videogame developers are only making 50% of the cheddar that they should have from sales. Because every one of those people who bought the game used, would have purchased it new, had the used option not been available. Even if they were waiting for it to get older, go on sale and be cheaper, they would have done so and still made the company cheddar.

So you are suggesting that the general populace only buys games that are used because they believe its on sale? It'd make sense, if you weren't advocating piracy as well. Used game stores carry multitudes of games that either no longer in production or the console has become obsolete to the very extent of the word, and just like pirating, the industry has no use for them.
And when it comes to newer games/consoles, I reiterate that someone had to buy them in the first place, which means, again that the company has no use for those games any more. Thus there's no difference between buying the used game and hacking it from the Industry's standpoint.

Also, to throw out the number that 50% of the games bought are used is absurd. For every 5 people buying a new game, 1 person will actually turn it in to a Used Game store, as they'll usually only get minimal store credit with it, practically just a game free of tax the next time they want to buy one. The other 2 people who didn't like the game will either give it away to a friend or go to the store they purchased it from and ask for a refund/exchange. So, how can a store sell so grandiose amounts if there's so little within their own circulation? Used Game stores don't sell 50% at all, probably closer to 30% or so; and the other 20% is quickly becoming pirating.

I see no difference between pirating or used games, when you say piracy doesn't hurt them. What we're looking at is more like a long term rent when it comes to used games.

[Karilyn]

So you are suggesting that the general populace only buys games that are used because they believe its on sale? It'd make sense, if you weren't advocating piracy as well.

The general populace don't pirate videogames. Only a small hardcore minority of gamers do. I seriously doubt piracy affects a number as big as 0.01% of all videogame sales. Either for or against the companies.

[Xeraphem]

So you are suggesting that the general populace only buys games that are used because they believe its on sale? It'd make sense, if you weren't advocating piracy as well.

The general populace don't pirate videogames. Only a small hardcore minority of gamers do. I seriously doubt piracy affects a number as big as 0.01% of all videogame sales. Either for or against the companies.

You'd think that, but there' actually more piracy going on than that. I am referring to the media on a grand scale at this point when I say that almost everyone in our generation knows how to hack something or another. With prominent How To guides on Youtube, hosted sites dedicated to creating a how to and FAQs about pirating, and practically any other thing you can think of, anyone who's smarter than a Fifth Grader can easily learn how to pirate media. Its on the rise and again, takes what buying used does not. The general populace is not all the bunch of sheeple that we give them credit for.

[Miss Starseed]

It took me like an hour to learn how to pirate one thing.

If I was still in school and looked around a crowded room, I seriously doubt the people who pirate often would be the majority.

Or maybe I just live in a really dumb area.

[Karilyn]

So, how can a store sell so grandiose amounts if there's so little within their own circulation? Used Game stores don't sell 50% at all, probably closer to 30% or so; and the other 20% is quickly becoming pirating.

Used Games get recirculated over and over. The people who purchased used games, tend to resell their games back to Gamestop and similar stores.

Which leads to Used Games getting sold 3-4 times.

Even if only 10% of games are being sold back to a store, they then proceed to get resold as used games multiple times. Thus, if you count each resale of a used game, even multiple sales of the same disc or cartridge, it easily comes up to around 40-50% of all videogame sales.

EDIT:

Or if you want an actual statistic, last quarter in the UK, the store GAME, had 25.47% of it's sales as used games.

That's one store, in one country. But it's easy to see how utterly detrimental that is to developer profits.

[Xeraphem]

But what does recirculation mean to a company that has no use for the game? Officially, it's the person's who bought in the first place. Again, I will say that not many people will "sell" their games back to Gamestop, because they only get minimal store credit. I've done it enough times to know it's stupid as all get-out and will probably not bother selling them back there. A nineteen dollar game equalled to nineteen cents worth of store credit. No thanks, no thanks.

Plus, re-sales get cheaper and cheaper, meaning that the only reason the general people are buying this one is because they didn't have the cheddar to buy the game as new in the first place. The only thing lost is the customers cheddar if the game had been available for piracy, as well as if they had the means to pirate it.

1) The people who have the cheddar to buy it and receive change will do so, because of the appealing quality of having something new. (New Game smell, mmmm...)
2) People who buy used are on a budget, and thus have to wait until they can play the game, relying on Average Joe to decide he doesn't want what he bought with his own cash and sell it back for poor store credit. ((Tax free vidja gaems.))
3) Then, there are pirates who will simply rip it and then produce it for friends family and people who may even give them cheddar at the same rate as a used game for something he got for free.

Also, by using statistics, it's been concluded that Software Piracy, including video games for the computer are at an all time high of 20% in our country alone.

[Decker]

You guys have the most serious discussions about cheese

[Xeraphem]

I take my Gorgonzola with the utmost srsface.

[Karilyn]

In case you haven't noticed Xeraphem, the majority of used videogame stores only deal in current circulation games, or at least try to as hard as they can.

Not stuff like SNES games, but stuff like PSP, DS, PS3, Wii, and XBOX360 games, and they heavily emphasize the sale of anything which is currently selling new, specifically because they make the biggest profit if they can sell a used game for $45-$55 a month after it came out, instead of only $19.99 2-3 years later.

Which is an absolutely 100% direct cut out of the developers profit.

[Cirdanf]

So you are suggesting that the general populace only buys games that are used because they believe its on sale? It'd make sense, if you weren't advocating piracy as well.

The general populace don't pirate videogames. Only a small hardcore minority of gamers do. I seriously doubt piracy affects a number as big as 0.01% of all videogame sales. Either for or against the companies.

It depends on the country as well, the ethics are different and the options are different. Over here, we "have" to buy games overpriced at 400% of the original cost from RESELLERS, not directly from Nintendo, or whatever company we're referring to. That means "resellers" are getting the cheddar, and Nintendo got it already.


Would you buy a 400% overpriced game, or download it with No Penalty, and I must underline:

Whatsoever ?

They import from the US, if I haven't been clear enough.