AWKWARD ZOMBIE

Kamak wrote:In any case, I think banning topics for discussion shouldn't be a solution at least until the forum shows it's unable to deal with it without flipping their collective shits, which usually doesn't happen. We used to have issues discussing trans* stuff before but now it's a lot easier, and I think it'd be kinda backwards to ban discussion of a subject just because of 1 incident.

Apart from NSFW stuff being mostly forbidden (that is except when you want to talk about health concerns and art references), there are no topics that are banned.
However, there is no point in posting something that you know is controversial or taboo somewhere else than in Taboo Topics. Do not do it. Take it to Taboo Topics right away.

Except what's considered a Taboo Topic is so subjective, there's no way to conclusively draw a line. People could get into an argument over bacon for crying out loud. Yes, I know that's a silly example and I don't think we've ever actually gotten mad over it, but at least half of the TST is composed of screencaps of "Social Justice Warriors" (or someone else) having some opinion that the poster would disagree with. A post of someone saying "XYZ is racist" probably isn't terribly funny, its one of those things that just makes most people rage because they have a different opinion. You could post about it in Taboo Topics, but it might not even be that "Taboo", and chances are it's not about making a logical argument, its about making fun of the person in the screencap. Unless what they said is so ridiculous that it becomes comical, the sole purpose of posting that is "Hey look at this stupid person I found on the internet".

The Text Thread just isn't worth it IMHO. Again, if it's funny enough, it goes in Funny Pictures Thread. If it's something controversial that you want to have an intelligent discussion over, it goes in Taboo. If it's just making fun of someone that the poster thinks is dumb, it shouldn't be posted at all. That's essentially bullying at an anonymous level, which doesn't make it okay.

If it involves politics, religion or sexuality it belongs in Taboo. If you're about to say something that's controversial and you know will upset people you should also take it too Taboo. If a discussion is about a serious subject and is upsetting you you should also ask to take it to Taboo. Using some common sense has always been one of the ground rules of the forums.

If people held off on posting the text post screencaps that had really controversial material (like the ones that sparked the last two thread lockings), that would probably help. Maybe they should think "do I really want to show this on a public forum where people will bicker about it nonstop?" That doesn't mean post nothing, but if it's going to lead to someone saying 'hey take this to taboo topics' maybe you should just put it in Taboo to begin with. I know since the first lock, I've been being more mindful of what I post in there to make sure it's not simply bullying or pointing out stuff about pedophilia/incest/etc.

And if people weren't so intent on proving how goddamn right they were all the time to a bunch of strangers, maybe they would be okay with just letting an issue be. I don't really quite know how to say this without sounding insensitive but I know folks on here sure do love their arguments even if they end up going around in circles.

I think a big problem is the weird fetish some people seem to have for being devil's advocates. Yes, you are presenting an alternative perspective on the issue. That doesn't make it worth saying and it definitely doesn't make it appropriate for the topic.

Also, next time someone wants to wax objective like that, try to consider how novel your ideas really are. We were all already aware of the arguments that were made, we just recognize that it doesn't need to be discussed because, hey guess what, there's no reason at all to discuss the validity of incest on an Internet video game forum.

Madican wrote:Vax it wasn't that you had an opinion that made me jump in to defend Reyo, it was that your post insinuated he was a horrible person. That's what I couldn't ignore, when you pretty much made the decision, before even listening to a reason, that he either wanted to start a fight or supported incest. No matter which way he answered, short of not answering which he did, he would appear guilty. THAT is what's unfair, giving someone two shitty choices that they can either answer and incriminate themselves or dodge and also incriminate themselves. So I wanted to let you know what you'd done, since I didn't think it had been done on purpose, so that you could be made aware and not do it again in the future.

I know exactly what I said Madican, and I know the implications of what I said as well. I reacted with emotion to his post, just as you reacted with emotion to mine. As I said before, even with proletariats, that happens from time to time, and I appreciate that sometimes it can cause trouble, but hell that's why I'm not the only mod. We keep each other in check too, believe me. I saw a post that screamed out to me that he blatantly wished to start an argument that I found needless and unnecessary. The fact that he was playing devil's advocate annoyed me further so I responded with an admittedly harsh post. Not as a mod, but as an annoyed person. I ignore stuff on here that I find dumb a lot, but this time I didn't and that's that. I do not need to be told what I've done.

I don't mean to sound all "vehemently against the TST's existence", but I really just don't see the benefit of keeping it around.

Just debating the guidelines for it is getting heated. Why not just remove the problem entirely?

YCobb wrote:I think a big problem is the weird fetish some people seem to have for being devil's advocates. Yes, you are presenting an alternative perspective on the issue. That doesn't make it worth saying and it definitely doesn't make it appropriate for the topic.

Also, next time someone wants to wax objective like that, try to consider how novel your ideas really are. We were all already aware of the arguments that were made, we just recognize that it doesn't need to be discussed because, hey guess what, there's no reason at all to discuss the validity of incest on an Internet video game forum.

Devil's advocates are fine so long as the person at least knows what they're arguing and isn't trying to talk down to others about the concept like it's impossible for them to grasp or think about without their help. I personally kinda like playing devil's advocate (though sometimes I kinda don't do the best at it, but hey, the point is to learn on both sides, not to preach), mainly because I'm kind of wishy-washy in the sense that I like to consider all of the pros and cons that I can conceive of and still learn about it before getting a solid opinion.

On another forum we had someone do this with things like gay marriage about the most basic things (almost to the point of "what are homosexuals?" kinda answers), so like you said, it wasn't necessarily novel. But all the same, for some people it's kinda hard to read what level of comfort everyone has with a concept, so it's easy to go "high school essay" and lead people through the logic, even if it's off-putting and annoying to read through.

The thing is though, TST isn't a place to really defend or lambast anything. We hate when people argue if funny pictures are funny or rude or whatnot, but we seem to kinda "expect" to get into arguments in TST, which shouldn't be a thing.

The thing is though, we can't take these things to taboo to begin with because the majority of the initial posts are "someone proporting a stupid opinion about something" like saying racism isn't a bad thing or something, and taboo is definitely not the place to go "holy shit this person is wrong and they make me so mad!". You almost would need like either a debate thread or a thread for "hey let's discuss this stuff" but even then it might turn into bickering like the TST has just on the basis that not everyone is going to agree, and not everyone is going to laugh when something they care about is being strawmanned by an idiot on tumblr.

So we're kinda stuck in that weird spot where "how do we find a place where people should expect this kind of thing to be discussed more civilly than a regular thread, but not as strictly as taboo topic?", and while I don't always agree with the weird or rude images people post in TST, I also don't necessarily want to say members are out to specifically hurt someone or cause a fight. There's just either no "safe" thread to put them in, or they don't realize that other people might react strongly to what's going on.

The main thing will be that people need to do more reporting when they're upset by something and let the proletariats make a note of it or address the issue rather than take it upon themselves to say that they're upset and make it a public thing, and if it goes past that point, others need to step back and not get involved to make it worse. I mean, MY GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO SAY WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT AND DISREGARD ALL CONSEQUENCES TO WHAT I SAY, you have the right to say whatever, but it seems to just cause a lot of unnecessary fights, and proletariats would be better off kinda knowing specifically what needs to be tweaked in the thread and what bad posts look like before they blow up into big messes and hurt feelings all the way around.

I mean, I'll admit, I'm often afraid of reporting things because I've had bad run ins with other forums (and I think once here when I first joined;;), where reporting seemed "superfluous" and "you're just reporting because of a grudge", but at this point, it's better safe than sorry, and I think proletariats would rather get tons of reports and stop people from fighting than have some of these lingering grudges that flare up on occasion because of something someone did months ago.

We didn't used to have arguments this ridiculous in TST until a while ago, though. When someone said "take it to taboo topics" (which really should be a given by now) they did. Now it just seems like things are turning into pointless pissing contests.

I don't think the issue is really whether or not TST exists. It's a matter of courtesy, if a mod tells you to stop, you stop. If they tell you to take it to Taboo, do so. If you have a problem with what they're telling you to do, take it to PMs so you don't clutter the thread.

It's a lot of work but I think it's important to mod in a way that allows people to do the right thing by themselves, instead of having to nanny people and lock thread because they've been naughty children.

Basically the idea is to foster a culture of maturity and respect within the forum, so eventually the proletariats don't have to do as much work to keep people in line.

At times there's no choice but to "nanny" people a bit when they've been dumbasses. I agree with you, though, and that's what we want to do. We're just having a hard time figuring out the best way to go about it.

SaintCrazy wrote:I don't mean to sound all "vehemently against the TST's existence", but I really just don't see the benefit of keeping it around.

Just debating the guidelines for it is getting heated. Why not just remove the problem entirely?

It was originally created because the funny picture thread got flooded with text.

Kamak wrote:

YCobb wrote:I think a big problem is the weird fetish some people seem to have for being devil's advocates. Yes, you are presenting an alternative perspective on the issue. That doesn't make it worth saying and it definitely doesn't make it appropriate for the topic.

Also, next time someone wants to wax objective like that, try to consider how novel your ideas really are. We were all already aware of the arguments that were made, we just recognize that it doesn't need to be discussed because, hey guess what, there's no reason at all to discuss the validity of incest on an Internet video game forum.

Devil's advocates are fine so long as the person at least knows what they're arguing and isn't trying to talk down to others about the concept like it's impossible for them to grasp or think about without their help. I personally kinda like playing devil's advocate (though sometimes I kinda don't do the best at it, but hey, the point is to learn on both sides, not to preach), mainly because I'm kind of wishy-washy in the sense that I like to consider all of the pros and cons that I can conceive of and still learn about it before getting a solid opinion.

I disagree. There's still no reason to discuss things like that in that thread (or even, arguably, anywhere). Sure, the people playing devil's advocate are saying things which are true, but those things still don't need to be said. The people in the topic don't care. They want to see funny screencaps, not faux-intellectuals trying to educate us on incest.

Most of the things being said weren't even really informative. I guess I can't say this applies to everyone, but I at least didn't read a single new idea in that discussion. I'm willing to bet others found it just as unrevolutionary. It seems like an ego issue, to me - the people doing this think they're educating us unwashed masses, when really they're just being embarrassing on soapboxes. I reiterate: yes, we all know about the scientific and cultural basis for incest's taboo nature and why that basis could be perceived as flawed. We just don't feel the compulsion to discuss it on a forum about a silly video games webcomic.

Maybe you don't, but some people want to discuss it here regardless. This isn't just a forum about Katie's webcomic. If that was the case, we'd only have the Le Comic section.

I can concede that, but it was still a bad idea to even begin broaching the subject in text screencaps. I think the blame should fall less on the topic and more on the people who though it was appropriate to discuss it in the thread.