Super Smash Bros.: The one with Ridley in it

[TerraChimaera]

guys
guyS I HAVE THE BEST IDEA even though nobody acknowledged it

This guy
MAKE HIM PLAYABLE

[Shoolis]

I think there are enough Pokemon in it now, thank you very much

[Syobon]

And some people want to be competitive with items. But because of the way competitive is done in ssb, it's harder to get real discussion or strategy going without the "casuals" or the no item competitives smothering it out.

Pokemon even has two competitive sections. Official tournaments are lenient and don't care about evasion, tiers, and other issues with the meta game, and you have Smogon and online communities to balance the random and keep Pokemon separated into tiers to allow different levels of play. Even if you don't like one of them, there's another option.

SSB doesn't have a second option, at least not in an organized or legitimate form.

They tried items on and they didn't like it, if you want competitive items on tournaments, organise them yourself instead of complaining about what other people do with their time and cheddar.

[Liraxus]

The only item I'd really ban would be the Bob-omb because it's difficult to dodge one, at least with the Smart bomb you can dodge roll out of the way.

[Link500]

The only item I'd really ban would be the Bob-omb because it's difficult to dodge one, at least with the Smart bomb you can dodge roll out of the way.

there are a lot more problematic items then just the bob-bomb, the fan comes to mind as well, majority of the cast can permanently lock opponents on the ground with the fan just by spamming the A button with it.


the competitive community of smash seriously tried to use items in melee's time years ago, they tested it, they realized it never gave any consistent results and usually ended up in someone winning or losing by luck, and luck was not what they were trying to measure, so they decided to leave them off, they did this for at least over a year, so they tested this for more then enough time before coming to their decision.


I guarantee if all the people here were in a tournament, (lets just say the finals) with a prize of say like $5000 or more on the line, and you lost the final match because a bob-bomb popped in your face to kill you on your last stock as you were doing a move, or your opponent got lucky and a fan spawned next to em and they just mashed the A button on you to trap you until you were like at 300% and killed you with a random smash, you'd be totally rustled because you just lost thousands of dollars out of sheer bad luck. It didn't matter if the rest of the tournament you were winning most of your matches from reading your opponents better and outplaying em, the final match you ended up losing due to bad luck. No one here could honestly tell me that wouldn't piss them off, your skill as a player was made null and void by random luck. At least when items are off you know that the player outplayed/outsmarted you, they didn't get luckier than you.

those kinds of things do happen when items are on, people will lose or win from sheer luck.

and luck just really has no place at all in games where you're wanting to determine player skill.


What irks me is some folks act like we're playing the game wrong, despite the fact that the game itself gives you all the options to turn off items, and even itself has a setting that says " all items off/none" which pretty much shows that we're doing nothing wrong with how we're playing the game. We just want player skill to be the main determining factor of matches and not random luck.



also competitive players honestly wouldn't mind having some items on and having item tournaments if there was a way to eliminate the luck factor of them completely, think like a setting in item switch that makes a ghost image of an item hover over the stage like a smash ball does, you can't grab the ghost image item, but after about 4-5 seconds it will spawn the item in the spot its over. Something like that would immediately get rid of the random factor of em as you'd know what item it is, where its gonna spawn and when. many competitive players wouldn't mind having some tournaments with some items on with that kind of setting.

[Madican]

I don't get why people keep bringing up the last stock, last move, sudden Bob-omb reason as nullifying player skill when there's the entire rest of the match.

If you lose your last stock to a Bob-omb it means your skill was not good enough to keep more than that one stock in all the events leading up to it. Doesn't matter about the final blow, your skill determined your place at the end. The other player outplayed you.

Also I really hate the logical fallacy of "I guarantee" bullshit. You do not speak for everyone here so don't act like you do.

[Link500]

I don't get why people keep bringing up the last stock, last move, sudden Bob-omb reason as nullifying player skill when there's the entire rest of the match.

If you lose your last stock to a Bob-omb it means your skill was not good enough to keep more than that one stock in all the events leading up to it. Doesn't matter about the final blow, your skill determined your place at the end. The other player outplayed you.

Also I really hate the logical fallacy of "I guarantee" bullshit. You do not speak for everyone here so don't act like you do.

the chance of keeping all your stocks(especially with once again the random luck factor of items playing a part) is slim in all item matches. what if both players are on their last stock? With the match being close throughout? the game itself still determined the winner from sheer luck by dropping that bob-bomb on em, or giving the opponent the easy win with an item like a fan spawning next to em. So at the end of the day anything the player did prior was still irrelevant, their skill as a player was made void by random luck.



The point is, items still have way to much of a luck factor behind them, and the competitive scene is not trying to determine who is luckier.

[Kamak]

And some people want to be competitive with items. But because of the way competitive is done in ssb, it's harder to get real discussion or strategy going without the "casuals" or the no item competitives smothering it out.

Pokemon even has two competitive sections. Official tournaments are lenient and don't care about evasion, tiers, and other issues with the meta game, and you have Smogon and online communities to balance the random and keep Pokemon separated into tiers to allow different levels of play. Even if you don't like one of them, there's another option.

SSB doesn't have a second option, at least not in an organized or legitimate form.

They tried items on and they didn't like it, if you want competitive items on tournaments, organise them yourself instead of complaining about what other people do with their time and cheddar.

My only complaint on the matter is the lack of discussion without derailment. Smash boards had a very nice pocket of competitive items discussion around the time brawl released (back when I cared to frequent smash boards) that ended up turning into a debate of legitimacy of items in competitive and whether it was ruining the fun of the game by over-analyzing it.

The people who tried it and didn't like it are the typical competitive crew and people who don't have access to decent analysis of the meta game as influenced by item choices. I've seen plenty of people frustrated because they don't know what to do outside of personal experience on the matter. It's hard to feel competitive if you have no real knowledge or solid strategy.

The issue is that the current competitive has had since Melee to be established, and the environment was (and in some ways, still is) toxic to the start up of the items competitive movement. Until people can get it up and running, we're not going to see it in any measurable form.

And personally, I'd love to help, but I'm mainly unsure what to actually do to help. I don't have a special set up or skills to help with something like this. About all I have to offer is personal experience, but it doesn't mean much if it doesn't get put in somewhere for consideration.

@Link500, I might be disappointed, because yeah, that sucks, but the same could have happened to my opponent.

Besides which, no one loses out on the cheddar. Only the winner receives it. Going in with an attitude that you have some stake in the prize cheddar is a terrible way to compete and is only going to end with you being frustrated, and possibly annoying or ruining the good times of other competitors.

So no, not everyone is going to be rustled at losing out. It happens, and even if the match continued past the bobomb, there's no guarantee that you'll have won the match.

When you compete in and event where only a few places get anything for their efforts, you realize that the vast majority are going to get nothing. In all likelihood, you'll be in that group. If not, great! You made a better end to a day of fun.

[Shad]

I don't get why people keep bringing up the last stock, last move, sudden Bob-omb reason as nullifying player skill when there's the entire rest of the match.

Because it can happen at any time. What if you have a great item spawning next to you five times in a row and your opponent doesn't? That's random, and that's an unfair advantage.
"There's no guarantee", "It could have happened to your opponent as well", as Kamak said. It means it's something that nobody has proper control over, which is anti-competitive.

Let's be real though nobody that wants to play competitively with items would leave bob-ombs on.

[Madican]

Yeah I'd definitely turn off Bob-ombs and Fans. Maybe Dragoon pieces too.

The idea of items on is to add an element of strategy, which means none of the one-hit kills. Smart bombs are fine since they have to be placed first.

[YCobb]

There's also the possibility of two players who are all well-matched. They could stay even most of the fight and get down to one stock each before a bomb might spawn, or a bomb could spawn to offset the otherwise even match.

In neither case is the winner necessarily more skilled than the other, just luckier.

[Kamak]

Bob-ombs and Super Stars would probably be first things cut for competitive on my list, since they can be passive items.

Possibly smash balls too since some characters are utter garbage with them compared to others.

[Shad]

I'd turn off heart containers, smart bombs, Starman, warp star, Dragoon, hammers, curry, barrel, party ball, capsule, crate, smartbomb, timer, Urina, Maxim tomato, metal box, mushrooms, Pokéballs, assist trophies, Hothead, lightning bolt, sandbag, and Smash ball.

[Madican]

I'd leave Hammer in just because it's not hard to escape someone who has it and sometimes the head falls off anyway, leaving them vulnerable.

Assist Trophies can go either way. Nintendogs will screw everyone over but I've been caught in a closed pit with the Excitebikes and that's just painful.

[Shad]

I feel some of the assist trophies are too powerful for one-on-one matches.