The Current Events Thread

[Madican]

Actually, while Martin's girlfriend was probably the worst witness the prosecution could offer, they do have the phone recording that reveals the events that started it. Martin noticed Zimmerman following him, the gun was not out, and Martin was trying to evade him. He thought he gave Zimmerman the slip but then found he had not. He then talked to Zimmerman, asked him why he was following, Zimmerman (who was breathing hard) asked Martin what he was doing around here. Again, night-time, in a dark hoodie, in a gated community. Not sure about the concrete/wood bit though.

It's what happened after that which we don't know, since the phone was dropped into the grass right after Zimmerman spoke and the sounds of a fight are muffled, to the point where no one could definitively identify who was talking after that.

Also D-Vid, Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain, not some random person playing hero. And no, you would die just as quickly from a gunshot wound to the arm or shoulder because of the arteries. It would be even messier too. Plus you are assuming someone can aim when being on the ground with one hand.

EDIT: This is a diagram of arteries in the arm alone:

[Madican]

Malum you are deliberately twisting the events to fit your own beliefs and ignoring the context. Stop it.

[Kamak]

I dont know about in America, but here neighbourhood watch people do not have the right to shoot someone. They watch after kids and call the cops, thats it. Anything else is being a vigilante.

This is correct. They are there to inform the police and follow the orders of the dispatcher. If the dispatcher felt that the situation was serious enough for him to get involved (shit's about to go down, cops are 5 minutes away in traffic) they might allow them to do something, but it's at the dispatcher's discretion and only in extreme emergencies. This is done to keep the people in neighborhood watch safe, and keep senseless problems from cropping up. There has been many times that neighborhood watches have called the cops thinking that there's a robber going door to door sizing up places, only for them to be door to door salesmen. The cops can straighten this out easier than a civilian.

Besides which, Zimmerman previously got in trouble for not following directions when he reported a crime. If I remember right, he almost lost his neighborhood watch privileges over it.

This certainly doesn't mean he's guilty, but neighborhood watch people tend to feel like they're on equal footing with cops on preventing crime.

And they're not. They're there to watch, not resolve problems and get themselves into a legal nightmare like this.

[Lambeth]

I dont know about in America, but here neighbourhood watch people do not have the right to shoot someone. They watch after kids and call the cops, thats it. Anything else is being a vigilante.

Zimmerman did call the cops and the dispatch said not to pursue. But he did anyway.

[Madican]

Malum you are deliberately twisting the events to fit your own beliefs and ignoring the context. Stop it.

Madican you are being condescending and are disregarding facts about what neighborhood watch groups are supposed to do. Stop it.

No one has the "right" to shoot except in specific circumstances, no matter what their profession is. Acting like Zimmerman thought he had that right because he's a neighborhood watch is deliberately twisting the facts, making you just as bad as Fox news.

He approached Martin in his capacity as a neighborhood watch, which was wrong, but he shot because he believed his life was in danger, his position meant nothing at that point.

[SaintCrazy]

So it sounds here like the main thing Zimmerman did wrong was disregard the police's advice and refused to stop following someone he thought was suspicious. However, the only reason people are up in arms about this case is not because of that, but because of the deadly force he used later on. IMO, he's shouldn't have put himself in the position where shooting in self-defense was even required, but chances are he wouldn't have foreseen that outcome of confronting Martin and there's no legal precedent to punish someone for putting themselves in that situation, anyway.

Really if any reform or movement is to come out of this, it should be to raise awareness of how a neighborhood watch group should emphasize reporting to the police, and stressing that if law enforcement tells you to do something, its in the community's best interests to listen.

Unfortunately, the unrest happening about it is about racial profiling and legal definitions of self-defense, which might be relevant, but those questions were never at the root of the problem.

[Kamak]

Malum you are deliberately twisting the events to fit your own beliefs and ignoring the context. Stop it.

Madican you are being condescending and are disregarding facts about what neighborhood watch groups are supposed to do. Stop it.

That's because I'm talking to a kid spewing bullshit. No one has the "right" to shoot except in specific circumstances, no matter what their profession is. Acting like Zimmerman thought he had that right because he's a neighborhood watch is deliberately twisting the facts, making you just as bad as Fox news.

He approached Martin in his capacity as a neighborhood watch, which was wrong, but he shot because he believed his life was in danger, his position meant nothing at that point.

I didn't get that from Malum's post at all. All Malum seemed to suggest is that Neighborhood Watches are not allowed to carry out justice which may or may not include using a firearm. The police carry firearms in the event that they need them in a confrontation to end it before there is greater loss of life/endangerment to other individuals. That's part of their job. A neighborhood watch is there to watch and assist if asked to.

He did not have the jurisdiction to carry out anything with Martin by himself.

Malum's statement of "right to shoot" read to me as "right to carry a firearm for use in keeping the peace", I.E. what an officer does. While personal protection is one of the things protected in gun ownership, Zimmerman did not have the right to assume the role of a officer and take it upon himself to fix this, gun or no gun. Had Martin come onto his property and displayed a clear threat to Zimmerman, self defense would be his option when dealing with it. However, Martin didn't. Martin only became a threat to Zimmerman when Zimmerman confronted him, which may or may not have resulted in a need for self-defense.

Fear and anger make people do stupid things, but Zimmerman went out of the safety of his home with the knowledge that the police would be on their way to sort out the matter, and put himself in this situation. Whatever the reason was, it was incredibly stupid and came across as taking the law into his own hands, and regardless of his guilt, I'm hoping his precedent doesn't inspire anyone else to make that dumb mistake, for honest or underhanded purposes.

Contrary to what comic books tell people, vigilantism is extremely dangerous and often harmful to the legal process. This case illustrates exactly why.

[SaintCrazy]

Problem is, there's no laws regarding what Neighborhood Watches can or can't do, as they usually aren't an official group run by any local or state government. There are only the laws of what any average citizen can do. He did something really dumb, but there was no law saying any of his actions were illegal.

Like Cynical Slob, he is not without fault here, but he is technically not guilty of the crime he was accused for.

[Lambeth]

So it sounds here like the main thing Zimmerman did wrong was disregard the police's advice and refused to stop following someone he thought was suspicious. However, the only reason people are up in arms about this case is not because of that, but because of the deadly force he used later on. IMO, he's shouldn't have put himself in the position where shooting in self-defense was even required, but chances are he wouldn't have foreseen that outcome of confronting Martin and there's no legal precedent to punish someone for putting themselves in that situation, anyway.

Really if any reform or movement is to come out of this, it should be to raise awareness of how a neighborhood watch group should emphasize reporting to the police, and stressing that if law enforcement tells you to do something, its in the community's best interests to listen.

Unfortunately, the unrest happening about it is about racial profiling and legal definitions of self-defense, which might be relevant, but those questions were never at the root of the problem.

Also that america's love affair with vigilante gun owners should stop. But I'm not holding my breath for that.

[TheStranger]

After 200 years of gun fetishism and obsessing over the "lone wolf avenger" fantasy? Youd have to do a complete overhaul on the entire culture for that

[SaintCrazy]

Yeeeeeah so many people I know think that they're just so independent and can "handle themselves" since they know how to use a gun.

I don't see the strength in that mindset, I see it as having a constant fear of the people around you. But you know, every day in the news they report all sorts of violent crimes and glorify big trials like this one, setting the public against some common "enemy", because the public feeds off of that fear and attention given to "the bad guys" and perpetuates the mindset further. It's the same near-glorification of violent criminal activity that actually leads the US to have more school shootings compared to other countries and probably contributes to our higher rate of violent crime.

That's kinda off on a tangent though.

[Kamak]

Problem is, there's no laws regarding what Neighborhood Watches can or can't do, as they usually aren't an official group run by any local or state government. There are only the laws of what any average citizen can do. He did something really dumb, but there was no law saying any of his actions were illegal.

Like Cynical Slob, he is not without fault here, but he is technically not guilty of the crime he was accused for.

Many neighborhood watches get shut down or are monitored by the local authorities to prevent vigilantism. In some places, neighborhood watches are required to register with the local government and often get training on how to look for crimes in progress and have a healthy community dialogue (so if someone enters a house that belongs to a family on vacation and they didn't mention having anyone look after the place, you know that something might be up and to call the police).

I think programs like that need to be expanded, though unfortunately, local authorities are often taxed enough without having to babysit neighborhood watches. Still, there needs to be some reform to keep them from doing anything stupid like this.

I remember in 7th grade our Student Resource Officer (a glorified security guard) pulled a gun on a kid in the hallway because he thought the kid was "up to something" since he had a pill bottle in his hand. The kid ended up being a special ed kid (taking his pills back from the nurse to his teacher for packing up for the day) and flipped the fuck out because "holy shit, that's a gun", and the SRO was fired for it. He thought he was capable of handling the situation, but he was gun heavy, and did not have the necessary training to do something like that. That was something to be reported to the office, and if it was a problem, he could confront the kid (without the gun), or the police would come and take care of it.

Even officers need a bit more understanding of how to handle situations, but ultimately, people who are not officers should not take on the job of an officer. This isn't a game, and you are not qualified to make these choices.

[Reyo]

I am aware that getting shot anywhere can be deadly.
However, I'm willing to bet a shot in the head or upper body kills you faster than a shot in the arm, and is harder to treat.
What we know is, Zimmerman engaged Martin after being told not to by police, he may have been assaulted, then ended up killing the boy. The fact he ignored the police instructions alone already makes me completely flabbergasted at how he gets off without anything. A person died why? Because Zimmerman thought he could be a daisies hero by facing the "suspicious individual"?

Speaking as a medic, that statement is false. A sucking chest wound is the least complicated wound to treat, especially in the case of emergency medicine, which would be more relevant in a case like Zimmerman shooting Martin in a street fight. In fact, shoulder/groin wounds are the most complicated injury to deal with just because it's such a pain in the booty to get the gauze tied on and stay in place. Next is any generic limb injury (like when you see the a action movie hero with a thing of gauze around his thigh), and then the stomach area. Head wounds there's not too much you can do. Just kinda...lightly hold gauze on it.

And I highly doubt we have any sort of say in what motivated anyone that night. You're assuming he pursued him because of some dream to be a hero. Nobody in there right mind actually pulls motivation from that source, let alone during the act. Yeah, everybody thinks "I'd be such a badass if this happened!" but then the "this" actually happens and your thoughts of "badass hero" turn to "Oh my God why does this have to happen? Can it just not?" It's the same thing with getting a random call to help someone at 3 in the morning. We all think "Oh I'd be so helpful and they'd be so grateful and shit!" but then you get that text message and you think "WHAT THE FUCK I JUST WANT TO SLEEP FUCK YOU FOR DOING THIS!" and you spend the next 10 minutes debating with yourself over whether or not you should just pretend you never received it. That happened to me just a week and a half ago. The problem is that hindsight and foresight are THE worst sources of relevant information over anything related to the why or morality of the what.

[TheStranger]

We can debate intent all we want, but the result is the same, a guy is dead, and the guy who killed him walked out scott free. Thats going to piss a LOT of people off.

[D-vid]

I am aware that getting shot anywhere can be deadly.
However, I'm willing to bet a shot in the head or upper body kills you faster than a shot in the arm, and is harder to treat.
What we know is, Zimmerman engaged Martin after being told not to by police, he may have been assaulted, then ended up killing the boy. The fact he ignored the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles instructions alone already makes me completely flabbergasted at how he gets off without anything. A person died why? Because Zimmerman thought he could be a daisies hero by facing the "suspicious individual"?

Speaking as a medic, that statement is false. A sucking chest wound is the least complicated wound to treat, especially in the case of emergency medicine, which would be more relevant in a case like Zimmerman shooting Martin in a street fight. In fact, shoulder/groin wounds are the most complicated injury to deal with just because it's such a pain in the booty to get the gauze tied on and stay in place. Next is any generic limb injury (like when you see the a action movie hero with a thing of gauze around his thigh), and then the stomach area. Head wounds there's not too much you can do. Just kinda...lightly hold gauze on it.

And I highly doubt we have any sort of say in what motivated anyone that night. You're assuming he pursued him because of some dream to be a hero. Nobody in there right mind actually pulls motivation from that source, let alone during the act. Yeah, everybody thinks "I'd be such a badass if this happened!" but then the "this" actually happens and your thoughts of "badass hero" turn to "Oh my God why does this have to happen? Can it just not?" It's the same thing with getting a random call to help someone at 3 in the morning. We all think "Oh I'd be so helpful and they'd be so grateful and shit!" but then you get that text message and you think "WHAT THE FUCK I JUST WANT TO SLEEP FUCK YOU FOR DOING THIS!" and you spend the next 10 minutes debating with yourself over whether or not you should just pretend you never received it. That happened to me just a week and a half ago. The problem is that hindsight and foresight are THE worst sources of relevant information over anything related to the why or morality of the what.

Speaking in emergency medicine sure but for example a punctured lung, possibly in multiple places from a shattered rib is very serious and hard to not happen when shooting in the general upper body area. Or damage to any vital organs which conveniently are all located around there. Limbs are easier to deal with in that regard since the worst that can happen is a damaged main artery. Still deadly if not treated quickly but not as "dying within a minute" deadly as is very possible with shots in the upper body.

As for what I bolded: he went out of his way to disregard police advice and engage Martin. Clearly he didn't feel like "Oh god why is this happening, why can't I be at home and just hear about this in the news tomorrow?" at the time.