Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

[Cori]

Some women might speak up if a comment offended them, but a lot of them...such as myself...are either too shy or feel like calling someone out would be rude and alienate the whole group because they'll be labeled a 'wet blanket'. I think if someone makes a crude or offensive remark the best course of action would be to ignore them and steer the conversation to another topic. And if they keep it up then maybe it would be a good time to say 'dude, give it a rest'. And not on the basis that 'you can't say that because there's a GIRL around'. More on the basis of 'that's insensitive and thoughtless and tacky to say demeaning things about half of the world's population'.

[SaintCrazy]

Yeah, its okay to point out that a comment is inappropriate, but "because there's a girl around" is the wrong reason to do so. Now, if you know this person in particular, boy or girl, is uncomfortable hearing jokes that are on the vulgar side, it's probably good to be sensitive to that. But on the basis of each person's personality, not just their gender.

I'm a girl and I hang out with some pretty vulgar dudes. A long time ago it made me uncomfortable, but I usually found myself laughing anyway and now I'm more comfortable hearing dirtier jokes and the like, even "sexist" things as long as theyre in jest. I think it confuses some people when I make or laugh at stuff like that.

[Reyo]

By the way, the vulgar things in question tend not to be direct references to women at all. They tend to be about typical things guys will joke with each other about. Like the most recent example was that I was closing at a restaurant I worked at, so naturally some of the other employees were leaving to go home before me. I was joking with this one guy where he was going home to "jerk it to old reruns of the Twilight Zone on Netfix." I can see where it would bother some people, but it seems odd to call someone out on it under the principle of "Dude, I'm totally OK with it, but she might not be!"

Well if she's not, I'm sure she's independent enough to note it herself.

[FlyingGiraffe]

Sometimes it feels like "DUDE there are GIRLS present" argument against vulgar comments is pulled out as a "hey let's not go there" that people will respond to given the societal backdrop, just so that topics like that will be dropped. Unless your buddy visibly found it hilarious before pointing out that women were present, I'd put cheddar that he was a bit irked himself and wanted to shift that feeling to someone else, perhaps not even quite understanding the feeling himself.

On a similar note, as far as gender goes do y'all think the societal shifts/arguments for gender equality are aiming to sexualize everybody or sexualize nobody?

[Dire]

On a similar note, as far as gender goes do y'all think the societal shifts/arguments for gender equality are aiming to sexualize everybody or sexualize nobody?

I'm not well versed enough enough to agree or disagree but I usually find the 'sexualise everybody' arguments counter intuitive.

I read a pretty interesting article about Miley Cyrus (bare with me here) and about how there are people praising her for being 'sexually independent' and pretty much saying that because she's being vulgar and not a demure wifey-poo that makes her strong. But in the end the 'sex sells' sentiment does nothing to prove her worth as an artist. The dialogue surrounding her is not about her ability but her body. She's a commodity, and that's sad.

I don't like the idea of 'sexy' equals 'strong', a woman (or man) should be considered strong because they are able to decide for themselves how they want to dress and who they want to sleep with. To me a nun is strong for being dedicated to her faith, a lady who has worked hard at the gym for her body is strong, and a larger lady who wants to wear a bikini at the beach is strong for not letting any bullying stop her from enjoying herself.

[Galaxy Man]

gender equality has nothing to do with removing sexualization really

It means exactly what it says, equality for everyone, regardless of gender.

Being sexual isn't really a problem, if someone wants to look attractive that's a fine and okay thing as long as they want that, the idea is that them being able to do that or anything else no matter what gender they are.

Oversexualization, reducing people to objects for the sake of attractiveness, is a problem because it permeates the media. It's a thing that's so hard to escape from. It's what drives the idea that someone is only measured in worth by how they look, it's just taking someone and reducing them to a thing.

but the idea that someone can be sexual, that they can look good and have other people be attracted to them, is something gender equality strives for and not against in any way.

[Lambeth]

Sexualization I'm leery of but generally okay with it. Objectification is something I loath though.

[Kamak]

The thing is though, people often assume the latter when they see the former.

A woman dressed up for a night on the town is either demeaning herself into an object or buying into a societal concept that she can only be attractive if she does so.

While entirely ignoring that it's possible that that's just the way she wants to dress and she's not being brainwashed by the media into doing it.

There's no real clear cut way to tell if people are objectifying themselves or just expressing themselves without you getting into their head. We even saw at PAX Australia the case where a group of "booth babes" knew how to play the game they were promoting and were excited to be there rather than being paid and forced to do this for the sake of sexy advertising, which only blurs the line and makes the label a bit unfair.

[DoNotDelete]

It's one of my pet peeves dealing with people who get offended on someone else's behalf, but - having said that - I also encourage anyone to speak up when they feel that an injustice has been committed.

I don't think somebody can ever really take offence on somebody else's behalf - how can any one person be certain of another person's mindset or experiences and/or how they will react to a given remark? Sure, speak up for those who are unable/too meek to speak up for themselves - but don't go into a full-blown forty-page rant about how those kinds of comments are wrong or offensive for x/y/z reason - especially under some kind of saintly pretense (read: delusion) of 'educating the world'.

However, it is never necessary to make derogatory remarks in everyday conversation - and personally I feel that it reflects badly upon the person who feels the need to make those kind of remarks (the amateur psychologist that I am - I cling to the belief that people who feel the need to make fun of others only do so to mask their own insecurities). I also don't like it when guys make derogatory remarks or sweeping statements about women - but it isn't as though women don't do the same of men as well...

Often at my place of work I'll hear some hatchet-faced woman saying that "All men are the same!" (usually pertaining to men either being lazy or untrustworthy in relationships) and it really puts my nose out of joint because I'm not at all like most men, but I've learnt - especially with that kind of woman - that it's better to bite your tongue, roll your eyes and walk away.

Some people are so set in their opinions that they're not worth wasting the breath on.


Edit:

"because I'm not at all like most men,"

Ooops; looks like I've got my own stereotyping issues to deal with there.

Perhaps it'd be better/more accurate to say "I'm not at all like this woman's perceived stereotype of men".

[Kitsune Dzelda]

I practice equal rights for everyone. I actually have a very lucrative and calming way of going about it.

I imagine said person going to the guillotine. And when it comes down to the women I do it to, I ask myself if Id do the same thing to a man. 8===D And then I learn to say yes and interesting things happen.

Interesting idea; Gender equality. Lots of people bawl about making the sexes fair when in reality, when you do this it also means you also take the same responsibilities, and thus the same consequences for your actions. Thats true equality right there. ;3

[Barabba]

Lately I've been hearing about people arguing that people should be allowed into the bathroom they identify their gender with, but that seems like it's asking a lot (well, not really a lot) of people who are used to the way things are right now with restrooms.

Like, wouldn't you be weirded out if one of your co-workers of the opposite sex came into your restroom one day like it was a normal thing?

[Cori]

A lot of places have 'family' restrooms that can be used by either sex. More places should have that, the problem is that they typically have just one toilet and one sink so they're not convenient for places that get a lot of people. Like amusement parks.

[Barabba]

So basically, the problem is urinals? I am all for abolishing those things, sometimes I'm too tall or short, and half the time the piss bounces off a little.

[Reyo]

Think of it like this, why wouldn't a man be able to go into a women's restroom?

If the first thought in your head had anything to do with "It's sexual harassment on the man's part for trying to peek!" then try and imagine why a women wouldn't be able to go into the men's restroom.

That's why it'd be iffy. Women would be able to walk into a man's restroom willy nilly because "Well she identifies herself as a man." but the issue is would guys be able to do the same in the women's restroom without scrutiny? Don't ask it of yourself, ask it of society, do you really think society would keep that part of the interaction equal? Or would guys still have to worry that they'll be called out for going to the women's restroom?

I'm not trying to prove some point that it would never work, I'm answering why there'd be a concern. I can't help but feel, with this wave of "feminism", that the idea was proposed 90% because women identifying themselves as men should be allowed to go into the men's restroom, and only 10% because we should accommodate for perceived gender.

[YCobb]

Lately I've been hearing about people arguing that people should be allowed into the bathroom they identify their gender with, but that seems like it's asking a lot (well, not really a lot) of people who are used to the way things are right now with restrooms.

Like, wouldn't you be weirded out if one of your co-workers of the opposite sex came into your restroom one day like it was a normal thing?

The problem with that argument, as I understand it, is that what someone else is comfortable with shouldn't be grounds for imposing those norms, potentially harmfully, on others.

However, I do understand that it would compromise feelings of privacy, and I object to it in part because it would open the door for a lot of disgusting people to abuse the chance to walk into the opposite sex's bathroom. It also wouldn't really cut down on the hostility many trans* people experience when using bathrooms; neither side is any more likely to welcome trans* people.

My more eloquent rationalization is that bathrooms are separated by sex, not by gender, and that it is important to keep these concepts separate. That's not to say the idea of separate facilities isn't flawed, but for the moment I believe it has its uses and that it is in most people's best interest to maintain the current norms.

EIDT:

women identifying themselves as men

I don't think you meant it, but your wording leaves a lot of room for someone to take extreme offense.