Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

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SaintCrazy
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by SaintCrazy »

Good article, I liked this quote at the end:
Foucault’s point wasn’t that disciplinary power was intrinsically bad; the idea that, for example, pedophiles might be deterred from accessing child pornography for fear of state surveillance of child porn sites shouldn’t bother anyone. Rather, Foucault warned, disciplinary power was dangerous — used in certain fashions, it could be subtly corrosive of exactly the sorts of freedoms of expression and self-identity that liberal democracies purportedly protected absolutely.
Emphasis mine - I think the problem might be that we don't have clear guidelines set as to what level of monitoring is acceptable. Is it okay to monitor the transactions of a website that sells guns and weapons? Is it okay for Facebook to see what kind of things you buy on Amazon and tailor ads accordingly? Is it okay to collect data about who someone calls, or how often, as long as the phone call itself isn't recorded? I feel like there isn't really a precedent for this stuff, only people's preferences.

I do think people should have privacy rights, but the limits aren't clear. Having complete and total privacy is unrealistic by nature - if you send a letter to someone, others could see you sending it, if you tell a secret to someone, somebody else could overhear. If you live in a society where you depend on systems of economy and government, those systems, probably including some people that you don't know, will have to know some things about you in order to interact with you at all. But there's no clear guideline as to how much they should be able to know about you.
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Brekkjern
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Brekkjern »

This is from The Current Events thread. Posted it a few days back.
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Syobon
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Syobon »

@SC, Those are pretty simple questions, sale of guns should be regulated as the law dictates, and facebook or amazon shouldn't collect your data without asking your permission. It's easy if you view it like this: your information is your property, and nobody should have access to it without your permission or going through the proper legal channels to ensure it is necessary (ie. getting a warrant). In this age information might just be the most valuable commodity, and we are getting robbed blind so to speak.

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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Brekkjern »

That's actually a very good point. When you publish your information, you are the publisher. You own every right as to how that information can be used and who can copy it. You actually have copyright on it. When you sign up to services like Facebook you sign away some of your rights to the information. Essentially, nothing you publish on Facebook is owned by you anymore. It is purely Facebooks property. Even if you "delete" the information, the only thing that happens is that Facebook won't let others see it, but it is still on disk. You can't even revoke Facebooks rights to your information.

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Reyo
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Reyo »

The way I've always felt about privacy is the only ones who seem to care too much about their privacy are the ones with things to hide. I don't really care if the government wants to snoop on my phone calls or my facebook. All they're gonna hear are weekly calls to my parents, and all they're gonna see is whiny facebook drama from my friends.

The same goes for anyone wanting to search my apartment because they think I committed a crime. The worst they'll find is a mess in my room they'll have to sift through. It's all about confidence. I'm confident that I'm doing absolutely nothing wrong. If you're anal about people being able to tap into your communications, what's that supposed to say about your confidence in what you communicate about?
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D-vid
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by D-vid »

I'll say it in the words of the Pirate Party.

Everyone has something to hide. And that's not a bad thing.
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Syobon
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Syobon »

Alright, try to think of it this way: even if you for some reason don't care that some guy is watching your every move for no reason, with no privacy rights you're only one small step away from living in a perfect tyranny. If the government has control over every information channel, there's no way to organise and protest any of their actions, because they could instantly crack down on any dissenting opinions. Think back to the Occupy Wall Street protesters being labelled terrorists.

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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by TheStranger »

Reyo wrote:The way I've always felt about privacy is the only ones who seem to care too much about their privacy are the ones with things to hide. I don't really care if the government wants to snoop on my phone calls or my facebook. All they're gonna hear are weekly calls to my parents, and all they're gonna see is whiny facebook drama from my friends.

The same goes for anyone wanting to search my apartment because they think I committed a crime. The worst they'll find is a mess in my room they'll have to sift through. It's all about confidence. I'm confident that I'm doing absolutely nothing wrong. If you're anal about people being able to tap into your communications, what's that supposed to say about your confidence in what you communicate about?
Youre ALWAYS doing something wrong, no matter how miniscule. That mess? Could breach tenant laws. Your browser history might reveal some copyright violations. The right to privacy is a protection against abuse from the goverment, a protection from them using their power as a weapon to hit you over the head with.
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Lotharu
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Lotharu »

I view it as the government assuming you're guilty of something until their constant surveillance deems you not guilty.
Which, if you recall, is the direct opposite of our entire justice system.
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by TheStranger »

You really think the US goverment gives two shits about the standards its supposed to uphold beyond lip service? Eventually, all ideals yield to convenience, expediency and greed.
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Reyo
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Reyo »

That's just assuming the worst, though. There's obviously a line between just watching, and abusing that watch. Yes, my internet browing history is scetchy at best, and that mess in my room is...well the nice way to put it is "impressive", but at the same time nothing is done about it.

Or at least I haven't heard anything about it.

It's comparable to a murder investigator finding out a witness was smoking the reefer, or partaking in "unfavorable acts" with a prostitute. Is it against the law? Yes, but he doesn't concern himself with it because he's got to catch a serial killer before he kills 3 more women in the time it'd take him to book the guy for having a joint. He also knows that if he does do that, word will get around and no one will want to help the authorities ever again. So I'm not saying it won't be possible, I'm saying it'd be against their best interests. If they're trying to catch terrorists before they do something horrible, giving shit to some guy who was just a little bitessy is not only going to waste their time, but cause the guy, and anyone else they give shit to, to potentially add to those protests, which would just be more wasted time and energy.

If that is how the system does decide to end up, however...well...that'd be pretty silly on their part.
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D-vid
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by D-vid »

Another thing you might want to consider is that advertisers, possible employers, insurances and so on are ready to pay a fine sum for information like that.
And this kind of stuff has been sold before that wouldn't be the first time.
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Reyo
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Reyo »

What sort of stuff, though? That I have a messy room? That my friend smokes plants? That my roommate is having issues with his relationship? What could advertisers use that for? If my roommate suddenly gets twice as many junk emails for relationship therapy, he'll probably just have twice as many junk emails to not look at in his junk mail box. If I start getting more ads for a maid service in my mailbox, I'll just end up having more peices of colored paper to throw away along with the other stuff they already send me.

While I see where the issue of privacy is coming from, I can't help but notice that the basis for the argument is simply the slight intrusion on communaction privacy, and not actually a worry for a needed revolution.
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by TheStranger »

No one ever thinks about the worst case scenario until it happens to them. But fine, just shrug it off, just dont come bitching if it does bite you in the booty later.
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Reyo
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Re: Taboo Topics (Heavily moderated)

Post by Reyo »

If it does come and bite me in the booty, I'd be more impressed than anything else. Besides, I'm not the type to just bitch his problems away (unless I'm just feeling particularly bitchy that day). If the government decides that my messy room is more important than a planned terrorist attack, then I'll gladly get involved to stop it. I'm not saying to ignore the possible bad shit that could happen, I'm saying to not assume they're definitely going to happen, because that's where a self fulfilling prophesy comes in to fuck things up. I'm saying keeping an eye on things to make sure bad things don't happen is sometimes better than vetoing everything that could possibly end bad. The technology does have some horrible possibilities, but it has its potential for such good. Every major technological advance in the last 150 years has been that way.
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