AWKWARD ZOMBIE

TheStranger wrote:But its not a matter of sexual identity or gender issues or anything that has any remote correspondence to reality at all, it is bodaciously just some people who likes to think that theyre secretly another species. That isnt grounds for legitimacy, thats grounds for psychiatric help. Im not calling for them to be ostracized from society, Im saying that this kind of thinking shouldnt be encouraged. There is a limit to where soemones behavior is a psychological problem and not just being different.

Well, still, back when homosexuality was just barely begrudgingly being accepted in some circles, trans* individuals were mocked and decried for believing they could "be born wrong". It wasn't a matter of whether you wanted to have sex with men or women, it was something that had no "remote correspondence to reality". It couldn't possibly be real, and had to be some form of anti-social behavior or some illness that these people needed help for.

But really, the situation is different, and there are a lot of new factors, and like with anything a comparison to the past isn't a definitive way to prove a point.

But the thing is, we look back on past generations as being ruled by bigotry and senseless hate for things they thought were just commonplace ideas. "It was a different time" and whatnot.

However, what if those same attitudes are pervading us in modern society without us even knowing.

It's easy to say racism and sexism are stupid (and maybe as easy to claim they're dead, because we'd never really be those things), and now, it's getting easier to say homophobia and trans*phobia are wrong too. But sometimes it's pretty hard to wrap your head around something new in society. Something really weird that some weirdos do, and that one person did that really awful thing... and man.

Maybe this isn't the case, but it's really hard, in the moment, to back up and see the whole picture going down. And who knows, maybe in the future, otherkins will still be seen as they are now, or maybe things will turn out similarly to the past, and our kids and grandkids won't believe how stupid our society was for the various things we thought and did, all the while looking down on people who petition for robot rights because they don't have the capacity to be human.

There's always the possibility to consider.

Sure, but that argument can be used to defend ANYTHING. "But you know, people were persecuted back in the old days for not being normal and Im just the same because people dont respect my love for my dining room furniture". It just doesnt work, at some point you HAVE to let an argument stand on its own instead of propping it up with appeal to victimhood. And sorry, but Otherkin arent a victimized minority, theyre a group of Internet people who share a mental problem, and have convinced themselves that everyone else are just being ignorant. So while they deserve the same level of respect that any person does, they shouldnt have their idea legitimized, because it just isnt.

Also, robot and AI rights might have an easier time because that topic has already been discussed so much in fiction that we've become familiar with the concepts before its even become an issue.

Kamak wrote:Well, still, back when homosexuality was just barely begrudgingly being accepted in some circles, trans* individuals were mocked and decried for believing they could "be born wrong". It wasn't a matter of whether you wanted to have sex with men or women, it was something that had no "remote correspondence to reality". It couldn't possibly be real, and had to be some form of anti-social behavior or some illness that these people needed help for.

That would be an excellent point if there weren't otherkin who believe they are dragons, or gryphons, or trolls from homestuck. Things that don't exist and never have. Which completely pushes otherkin into the corner of being a completely psychological thing and thus completely different from trans* which is also rooted in biology. They (in the literal sense) make-believe themselves to be some animal.

Now all those things would be irrelevant if, as always, there weren't any people who take things too far. Otherkin who feel opressed because they can't walk around town naked and stuff like that. Who eat raw meat. Who try to pee and crap on people's furniture if they don't like them. Those certainly need some medical attention. The problem there is now finding out if they are crazy like that for another reason or if it's part of their being otherkin and some are just worse functioning in society than others.

TheStranger wrote:Sure, but that argument can be used to defend ANYTHING. "But you know, people were persecuted back in the old days for not being normal and Im just the same because people dont respect my love for my dining room furniture".

And that argument has been used to circle back to the beginning of the issue. There's a reason they stalemate eachother, as it shows neither side can inherently win. the only thing that can be done is that the sides can learn from eachother in the discussion, if their minds are open to it.

TheStranger wrote:It just doesnt work, at some point you HAVE to let an argument stand on its own instead of propping it up with appeal to victimhood. And sorry, but Otherkin arent a victimized minority, theyre a group of Internet people who share a mental problem, and have convinced themselves that everyone else are just being ignorant. So while they deserve the same level of respect that any person does, they shouldnt have their idea legitimized, because it just isnt.

I do have to say one thing about the mental disorder argument. It seems this comes up a lot, but I'd like to know how many individuals who make it are actual psychologists or have at least taken more than 4 classes in psychology and/or mental health. I'm certainly not in a general standing to make any claims of mental health myself, but I find it odd that people can point at some behavior and say for sure that it's not healthy with little to no background in the field.

D-vid wrote:That would be an excellent point if there weren't otherkin who believe they are dragons, or gryphons, or trolls from homestuck. Things that don't exist and never have. Which completely pushes otherkin into the corner of being a completely psychological thing and thus completely different from trans* which is also rooted in biology. They (in the literal sense) make-believe themselves to be some animal.

Then perhaps, as with everything, there are a variety of otherkins to consider, and maybe the trollkins and other mythical/fictional beingkin are to the general otherkins what people equate the general otherkins to gays and trans* individuals.

I'm certain a good number of otherkins, for better or worse, don't associate themselves with the more extreme fictitious side of their ideas, and are probably cringing everytime someone brings up those as a definitive example of otherkins.

Malum wrote:No, there isn't a possibility, Kamak. Like at all. I don't think you understand exactly what otherkin is. It's thinking that your ENTIRE SPECIES is wrong.

I know full well what an otherkin is, and don't need an insinuation to the contrary, please and thank you.

Let me steer this conversation into a different direction though so we don't go in circles or get to a point of double and triple checking that everyone is on the same page.

What if, and this is a pretty big if, science were to find a link to otherkinism in some way. Maybe some genes from way back evolutionarily that got turned on by some weird enzyme that gave someone a trait from when we were very different. Does that suddenly change what they've been saying?

Or, in turn, what if the science that legitimized homosexuality and/or trans* individuals ends up being debunked as bad science, pattern seeing, coorelation without causation, or any other multitude of things.

Does that somehow suddenly make being gay or trans* non-legitimate?

No matter how moderate you are, it still doesntr change if you belive you're secretly a gryphon, and it doesnt lend itself to any further legitimization to the issue. You cant honestly think that you are a different species, and still expect to be taken seriously.

Personally, yeah, I've always believed that things like sexuality are like most things about a person-- a combination of who a person is genetically and who they grow up to be. It would be just as absurd to say you're only your genetics as it would be to say there's no such thing as genetic influence. It's just that people fighting over the issue like to boil it down to "it's a choice" and "you're born that way." I certainly haven't always been sure of my own sexuality.

On the other subject at hand, I'm inclined to be more accepting of upstanding members of society than of otherkin, I guess. Whether we're talking about the type of upstanding member of society who just enjoys that sort of character, or who, well, is attracted to animals or anthros, both of those things have a basis in human nature. Humans are imaginative, and it's not any sillier or less legitimate to say "if I were an x, this is what I would be" than anything else. Despite thinking bestiality is taboo for a good reason, there's also psychological and cultural support for attraction to animals, for various reasons. Not to get too into it, but for example, dogs are the animal people are most often attracted to, and it's easy to see why even if you don't approve-- dogs are loyal, affectionate, eager to please and hold a special place in the heart of humanity as one of our oldest and dearest companions. I've read that sexually they're meant to embody safety + fun, also. I think that possibly for many upstanding members of society who feel sexually attracted to anthros for their animal qualities, bodaciously anthropomorphizing an animal so they are intelligent and of similar body structure eliminates the moral and ethical issues associated with bestiality. On the other hand, maybe some just find that body conformation pleasing, no latent bestiality attached-- I enjoy anthros and kemonomimis aesthetically.

It's harder to quantify something I often see being proclaimed as "you think you were born in a body of the wrong sex? Well fine! I was meant to be a dragon, then!" I don't mean to sound like a dick here, but I've had a lot of experience recognizing when someone is trying very hard to be something they aren't. Like, a very lot. I was one of those people once, too, and in my experience, all acts of "special snowflake syndrome" come from the same place; a desire to be loved and admired, not knowing what else would earn a person those things. And, sometimes, a desire to like the self. That's hardly despicable, even if it often speaks from a place of emotional immaturity, and is sometimes presented aggressively or with resentment. And I don't just mean people with contrived characters and so on-- maybe SSS was a bad way to describe it.

It's easy to spot when someone is doing it, though. Often, they're the loudest about how unique they are, the first to take a "that's just how I am" or "if you don't like everything about me, fuck off! it's your loss!" attitude about some of their negative aspects, the first to pile on the special circumstances. Some people express it by making characters who know ALL the jutsus even the secret SIXTH jutsu and are best friends with all the important people and have an angel wing and a demon wing and and and and. Some choose to author a massive laundry list of "unique" and "special" disorders they have self diagnosed in themselves, and sometimes invented entirely, which they loudly broadcast but for which they show few-to-no genuine symptoms. Those who don't belong to internet culture may make up crazy stories to tell their friends, become the "class clown," and so on. Getting back on subject, in my admittedly limited experience, many otherkin behave just as the laundry-list-disorder people do, or the special-OC people, only instead of their schtick, they're claiming to be the MOST oppressed minority of all and the most special and spend much of their time looking for pseudoscience to support it, or lamenting to each other that no one understands the plight of the wingedhorse-dragon-fairy otherkins, not even the wolf-snake-eagle otherkins.

tl;dr I will be the first to say it's not any of my business anyway, but like many of the more unusual aspects a person might have, the loudest and most visible claimants are nothing if not textbook cases of SSS, and go far out of their way to remind people at every turn of whatever their particular thing is.

Anyway despite everything I've said, acknowledging that a person has an issue isn't the same (to me) as looking down on them or saying they are bad people. As recently as high school graduation I was indulging in a lot of the same types of forced behavior; god knows I'm hardly a perfect judge, besides. By nature practically everything another person does can be empathized with, even if you yourself haven't experienced that thing exactly, or don't feel exactly the same. The special snowflakes of the world aren't out to be "bad" people, and I know from experience that many are trying their hardest to believe what they're saying, themselves. This is something they want badly, and feel lost without, whatever that "something" is. And they're often doing it not just to get you to like them, but to get them to like themselves.

Wry Bread made a very good point.

When I was younger, I used to pretend I was Beast Boy from Teen Titans. I thought he was cool, and I wanted to be him because then I would get to have his friends and his abilities and cool things would happen to me. I could be a hero. I wound up inventing a lot of 'original characters' who were super special and had all of these special abilities and I would pretend I really was those characters.

But, you know, I moved on from wanting to be a special snowflake. I grew up and matured. I never lost my imagination, but I dropped the whole 'no my name is (character name) not Melissa' spiel.

When I see people on the internet pretending to be a dragon/homestuck/hobbit, all I can see is an eleven-year-old me running around and making animal noises like Beast Boy.

the "otherkin/fictive/factive plight" smacks to me of "but I wanna be oppressed too!!" and they're claiming it because some people on the internet are making fun of them. over the internet. If they claim that as their true oppression, then they must have pretty cushy lives.

you know what they say in the Incredibles, when everyone is (oppressed), no one will be.

Game Angel wrote:the "otherkin/fictive/factive plight" smacks to me of "but I wanna be oppressed too!!"

Not to justify anything, but considering this, I think that probably isn't the case the entirety of the time. I don't know about the majority the time, but sometimes it may just escapism or desiring to fit in a perceived accepting group. Still not exactly the picture of "healthy," but not necessarily an oppression-off.

but still, being made fun of on the internet is hardly oppression. I know people shit on Christians all the time on the internet, but I'm not crying oppression, even if it does tick me off.

People do not get denied jobs, housing or marriage or basic human rights because they think they are a tiger on the inside. (unless they actually try acting like a tiger in public but that's a whole new can of worms)

Oh yeah, they certainly aren't discriminated against. They aren't some minority or something. That said, the subculture isn't necessarily populated entirely by people with "woe is me I'm so hated" as an end goal. That's all I really meant to say. Some of them are just distraught individuals looking for some sort of answer or comfort.

And I can't blame them for that. People have different ways to cope.

But I certainly can hope they grow out of it, like I did about believing I was really a wizard, and had powers, or that I was friends with characters in movies, in my mind. When I was five. It seems like a case of stunted mental growth a lot.

I have the same view of otherkin that I have with tulpas. While I personally don't see the sense in it, it seems to make other people pop flyin', and as long as that happiness isn't being grasped at at the expense of the happiness of others, what harm is there in its existence? People call it a mental illness, sure, but if someone is pop flyin' with it then what's the issue exactly? If it were degrading to their health, then it'd be another story (and even then have its grey area) but it doesn't seem to be that way at all. If someone is pop flyin' with themselves as a dragon trapped in a human's body, and that allows them to be well structured members of society, then so be it. Now if someone is saying "I can't contribute to society because I'm a cat, and need to sleep for 18 hours of the day, and play with yarn for the other 6!" then no, that's called you being a leech on society.

But the thing is, form what I've seen most people who label themselves as 'otherkin' are NOT pop flyin'. They talk about how they're 'trapped' and they wish they could be the creature they truly are (fictional or otherwise). They spend so much time obsessing over all of the things that their 'animal' form could do that they can't and they tend to avoid people who don't share their 'otherkin' mindset because they don't want to deal with having someone question their identities (even out of genuine curiosity). And when otherkin congregate into groups, their mindset seems to get much, much worse. They tell their friends that "it's okay to want to tear someone's throat out, that's the wolf in you" and other things. It's a very unhealthy mindset and most of the time people are using it to escape from issues they would have to deal with "if they were human".

So no, I don't really think it makes people pop flyin'. It seems to cause the person more grief than anything else. It's not healthy to obsess over wanting to be something you're not; some people have even gotten suicidal about it. I think there was a post on that website posted a page or so ago that talked about an otherkin trying to kill themselves because they were struggling with depression, amongst other things. Some people seem to believe that if they kill their human body, they'll get their 'true' body back.

Then that's on par with having low self esteem to cause depression, and that is an issue in itself. Being otherkin by itself isn't much an issue, but if it causes that low self esteem, then it is an issue. Then the issue can be approached with "We don't like the fact that you're unhappy because you have such a low view of yourself" instead of "We don't like the fact that you think you're a cat trapped in a human's body." Potentially, you can preserve those feelings which could bring that person peace with themselves, and eliminate the real issue.

As far as "it's OK to rip someone's throat out" is concerned, that goes back to issue of being a cat who needs to sleep for 18 hours a day, and can't contribute to society. If you hinder on everyone else just trying to go about their own day, that's where it becomes an issue that needs to be addressed. Even then though, you can approach it more as "You need to stop thinking it's OK to rip people's throats out, seriously man!"